First use impressions from a new user

Wolfie

Member
Yesterday I received my Macro Controller and last night I sat down with the software for the first time to create some macros. In this case some duplication glitch macros. So here are my feelings on the software as well as my initial impressions. This will be a WOT post. Sorry. I try to be detailed where possible. I live on both the developer as well as the user side of software and I mean this post to aid the developer with the views of a first time user experience. This is not meant nor should it be taken as a diss on the current software/hardware.
 

Wolfie

Member
Controller:

The controller was well modded and the TACs were cleanly installed. Zippo for marks and scratches. Very clean manufacturing job. So my initial impressions of the controller are good and that the work was done very professionally. My initial thoughts were the bottom TACs were too close together. Farther apart, they could be actuated by different fingers. But I will reserve that judgement until I have more play time. I would also like to see two top TACs on each side instead of one per side. This will allow page flipping as well as programming a top TAC.

I would like to see the AA holder modded with a SPST-NC button on it. Pressing the button would interrupt the power. This would be handy for rebooting the controller during macro testing. I would also like to see some mod of the CnP cable to shut it off without unplugging it. Both of these mods would save a hell of a lot of wear and tear on the physical case of the controller during macro programming and testing. By placing a on/off switch on the CnP cable you could flip it off. Then press the power interrupt on the battery pack and test the macro in-game. Then press the power interrupt again and press start to set it to programming mode followed by flipping the CnP switch to re-connect to the PC. All done without ever having to unplug the CnP or removing a battery pack.


Software:

The software, on initial use was not overly friendly for a new user. Its clean looking but has some areas where it could use some improvement and I will address them one by one.

Initial setup was a piece of cake so that part is solid. I would like to see some VKS and VKM files installed along with the software for starter work and initial learning. Generic ones, not game specific.

The software window should be movable as well as sizeable. Right now, its just movable. There should be min, max and restore buttons. There should be frame edges to grab to size the window vertically, horizontally and diagonally.

It is very unclear that the icons in the top right change function from macro set view to timeline view.

Software should recognize standard keyboard commands such as CTL-S, CTL-O, CTL-C/V/X, as well as impliment an undo buffer.

I would like the file formats to be updated to text based XML so editing can be done in a standard text editor.


Macro Set View:

The Save icon on the wheels don't seem to do anything on the macro set view. No indication that they save nor popup asking for a filename.

The save at the top in the set view opens a save as dialog but never fills in the filename even if it has one in the filename set property box. In the timeline saving the macro DOES assume the filename from the macro properties box.

As I posted in another thread, its not clear at all that if you assign a macro to an existing standard button (such as stick or ABXY) that the macro will NOT override the initial press of that button. I assigned a macro to the left stick and expected the game NOT to receive the left stick press but it did. The ability to override the real button is one reason I bought the macro controller. I hated the layout for Left4Dead. One of the things I wanted to do was re-arrange the controls. Make the A button the X button sort of thing. This appears not to be possible, am I correct here? If I assign a macro to the X button that simulates pressing the A button, the game will still get an X depress, then the A macro followed by X release? Not good.


Timeline Editor:

There appears to be no way to simulate a release prior to a depress. For example, in the timeline, you click to create the down (A). Then you right click and drag to simulate holding and the release is at the end. You can't right click and drag backwards past the initial press to create a release prior to a press. In prior macro programming on my Thrustmaster joystick/throttle/rudders on the PC as well as my Logitech G15 and G13 keyboards you have specific depress and release functionality and allows you to program a release prior to a press. This appears to be completely absent in the Viking software.

Timeline scrolling is not comfortable at all. I was working on a macro that was going to run for 3+ seconds as a loop. I wanted the LED to light for the macro so at 0 I click then I start to right click and drag to the edge. I then had to release, go down to the horizontal scroller and slide over another screen width. Right click and drag the LED dot to the right edge of the screen and AGAIN release and scroll. Nuts. Really. The software should scroll if you are dragging either a dot or an action and hit EITHER edge. What it should have done is...click to set the initial point. Then when I right click and drag to the right and hit the edge, it should have kept scrolling right until I pull off the edge and release at the time I wanted thus combining dragging a point and scrolling of the screen at the same time.

You apparently can't hop tracks. I recorded a very timing sensitive macro of pressing the left trigger, (B) and left bumper. I wanted to duplicate this macro and move the left bumper action to the right bumper by dragging the action from the LB track to the RB track. Yea, not happening. I would really like to be able to drag from trigger to trigger, bumper to bumper, stick to stick and button to button for easily xeroxing of actions.

You can't drag actions on multiple tracks at the same time. Man what a PITA this became. As I said above, I recorded a macro of 3 actions (LB, LT and B). Since I had to start the recording and then re-position my fingers to perform the action, there was a time delay at the start of the macro. In the timeline I wanted to grab the 3 actions and drag them in unison to keep them relative to each other but found no way to do so.

There is no copy-paste. Hmm. It needs it. Bad. Need to be able to select an action, hit CTL-C to copy. Close the timeline and open another macro timeline and paste the action in.

There is no multi-action scaling. Sure you can set the playback time scale for the whole macro but this affects EVERY action in the macro. When trying to get the timing down on the 3 action macro, I would have liked to be able to select multiple actions across tracks and have left and right as well as center grips appear. Then I could drag the whole group left/right by using the center grip. I could grab the right or left grips and scale the whole group start or end. Think grabbing the left or right edge of your browser window to scale it. And think grabbing the title bar at the top to move it. This is what I was looking to do. Not for a whole macro, just a subset within the macro.

Trigger programming needs lots of love. First, the slider thing is backwards. Full press to the left and full release to right? No, thats backwards! Even better, rotate it 90 degrees and have full press at the bottom and full release at the top. This would simulate your finger pulling in on it and is more logical (to me at least). Or, better yet, don't do the silly slider in the first place. Make the track a waveform with a spline type curve trail and points with control handles so you can visually see the analog action right in the timeline. Right now, after recording a macro you get a bunch of dots and you have to click each one to see what the pressure level is. If yall don't want to go the full monty and make the spline curve, can you at least colorize the points and the line to indicate pressure level please? At least we would have a visual indicator in the timeline without a lot of point clicking.

LED color selector is missing white. It can do white, it does it when its showing the flickering USB communications indication LED set.

I would like to see collapsible groups for controls. Group the sticks, the bumpers and triggers, the buttons, LEDs and the ancillary buttons in discrete groups so they are collapsible. If I am working on a macro that never uses the sticks or ancillary buttons, let me collapse them so I only see the tracks I care about. Saves a lot of vertical scrolling

The timeline view needs a time zoom. Would be nice to be able to zoom out and map in gross actions and then zoom in and fine tune the precise begin and end points.

I would like to see macro sub-chaining. In my initial progrmaming exercise, I was working on a item duplication glitch for Minecraft. Several of the items (gold, iron, diamond and bone meal) all began with the same series of button actions. I would like to be able to save these common strokes (as they were really hard to time) and then execute them in multiple macros. The common strokes evoke the glitch and get you to a specific page in a tabbed dialog. At this point the 4 macros differ. But the initial actions are identical. Being able to store this initial sequence and then somehow insert them into other macros would really be helpful. How about a right click menu that would "Insert saved macro here" and offer an open dialog to read in a saved macro? The macro would be then read in and inserted in the timeline pushing anything existing over to the right. If the inserted file was edited, then all macros that used it would also update. This would allow you to tweak some items and have the tweak span across all macros that used it.
 

NYjetsNY1

Active Member
This is wonderful! This lists all of my complaints as well. It all comes down to time and budget... Most if not all can be fixed with nonexistent time and money but there you go.
 

Wolfie

Member
Not entirely sure how you meant me to take that reply. As I said in the beginning, I want this to be a positive thread about future improvements in the software.

As a programmer, I understand being too close to the code sometimes. You work on something so long and you are so familiar with the way it works you get what I call "Programmer Blinders". Getting a fresh perspective from someone who has never used an application before can be very valuable information to any developer. Clearly, its not reasonable to expect immediate and complete acceptance of suggestions. But I felt if the devs knew what a first use scenario looked like from the new user point of view, they would have important information on which to decide which, if any, new features or enhancements actually get worked on. Even if something so simple as the side scrolling when you hit the edge I would consider a win in the improvement column.

My goal here is to build up, not tear down. And its a bit of a self centered goal, I know, as I will benefit from it. But, we all will, no?
 

NYjetsNY1

Active Member
Right I would like all of these features as well - but viking doesn't have the budget to add them. That is what I was told.
 

odingalt

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Not entirely sure how you meant me to take that reply. As I said in the beginning, I want this to be a positive thread about future improvements in the software.

As a programmer, I understand being too close to the code sometimes. You work on something so long and you are so familiar with the way it works you get what I call "Programmer Blinders". Getting a fresh perspective from someone who has never used an application before can be very valuable information to any developer. Clearly, its not reasonable to expect immediate and complete acceptance of suggestions. But I felt if the devs knew what a first use scenario looked like from the new user point of view, they would have important information on which to decide which, if any, new features or enhancements actually get worked on. Even if something so simple as the side scrolling when you hit the edge I would consider a win in the improvement column.

My goal here is to build up, not tear down. And its a bit of a self centered goal, I know, as I will benefit from it. But, we all will, no?

This is the most all-inclusive post we've had. There's absolutely nothing here that we haven't heard before, but it is nice to have it all written down in one place. Your post looks exactly like our internal planning documents for "Project Valhalla" (the internal project name for the macro controller). We aren't on GUI v0.9.0.0 by random. We're at v0.9.0.0 because the project never become financially healthy enough to implement the remaining UI enhancements and other features and to take this software to v1.0.0. While the version number doesn't mean much to customers, it's an iconic reminder to myself that we never reached the full potential of this product.

I know exactly what you mean by "Programmer Blinders" as it's happened to me plenty of time on projects. But that's not what is happening with the GUI. In our case, we actually have "budget blinders". In other words, we have no more budget for macro software improvements.

I had first written a long sob story about why we don't have budget for more software improvements, but I deleted that, and can instead sum up the whole situation like this: 95% of customers in this market are just looking for a hot paint job and blinking lights. The other 5% that are looking for functionality in their controllers, and those people are already Viking customers. Since we already destroy the competition in terms of functionality and features, the sad fact is that any further improvements to the macro software UI will not boost sales, nor increase our profits.

This doesn't mean I'm giving up entirely, but this late in the technology cycle of the XBOX360, it would be business suicide to invest more into technology when technology is not necessarily what the customers are looking to buy. I've got all sorts of plans for Viking products when the next console is released. It will give me the opportunity to invest a larger budget, and then spread that cost over a 3-5 year period. The next console release will allow me to improve on the tech that we've got, while still working within the constraints that come from selling to a niche market.
 

JIM WALKER

Active Member
gentlemen,I have read every word of this post,and though I am not a tech ( far from it ) it is the best and most informative post I have read...the depth of knowledge and method of explaining from Wolfie is a joy to read ( I actually understood it all ) and odingaults reply is refreshingly honest and concise......brilliant post wolfie...thank you.....
 

odingalt

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Jim totally agreed! I just hope my response doesn't stop Wolfie from making great posts here at the forums!
 

DM RoseTyler

New Member
Why don't you create a GOOD youtube video as advertisement, that people might randomly see and be like, cool I might check this out, I found this controller by specifically looking for the controller and seeing Viking360 mentioned in the 5th page of some forum. You could demonstrate how it works and not like the videos atm, they're boring. Have it appeal to the FGC, the FPS community, as I mentioned at a point, I play fighting games, I had no idea if this controller would even work with it, so I didn't buy one for a very long time, why? because almost every **** video is about rapid fire. If I type Xbox 360 Macro controller into youtube, a great advertisement video should be the first one, explaining how it works and why you should buy it, maybe then you'll get funds to improve the software, as the OP posted, it could be improved.
 

DM RoseTyler

New Member
Also double post but out of 100% curiosity, why can't the Vikingdigital website let you customise your macro like Viking360 can? I read in a post that vikingdigital is for outside of the USA so I used that but there was no option for custom buttons or anything :/
 

ooRedXoo

Member
95% of customers in this market are just looking for a hot paint job and blinking lights. The other 5% that are looking for functionality in their controllers, and those people are already Viking customers.
That's sad to hear as I know I'm definitely apart of the 5%. But, as much as it could get better, I still love my macro controller the way it is now.
 

odingalt

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Also double post but out of 100% curiosity, why can't the Vikingdigital website let you customise your macro like Viking360 can? I read in a post that vikingdigital is for outside of the USA so I used that but there was no option for custom buttons or anything :/

VikingDigital.com was blacklisted by Google, traffic is nonexistant there now thanks to Google, so we don't keep that website updated. Viking360.com serves internationally via your choice of DHL FedEx, so there's no need to buy from VikingDigital.com.
 

odingalt

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Why don't you create a GOOD youtube video as advertisement, that people might randomly see and be like, cool I might check this out, I found this controller by specifically looking for the controller and seeing Viking360 mentioned in the 5th page of some forum. You could demonstrate how it works and not like the videos atm, they're boring. Have it appeal to the FGC, the FPS community, as I mentioned at a point, I play fighting games, I had no idea if this controller would even work with it, so I didn't buy one for a very long time, why? because almost every **** video is about rapid fire. If I type Xbox 360 Macro controller into youtube, a great advertisement video should be the first one, explaining how it works and why you should buy it, maybe then you'll get funds to improve the software, as the OP posted, it could be improved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3ryvmsBx9c&
 

odingalt

Well-Known Member
Staff member
when I type in, what I assume most people would, "Xbox 360 Macro Controller", that video doesn't even come up top 10 search on youtube, I wouldn't look past the 1st page, and the "review" videos that come up in place to basically advertise, are gutter trash and don't inspire me to buy a controller, get a flashy advertisement video.

I know. You have no idea how frustrating it is to try to manage media and our brand when the big companies like Google and YouTube have total control over what is displayed to the world. I have no idea how YouTube works, but I'm obviously not doing it right! lol
 

Boricua

Member
I know. You have no idea how frustrating it is to try to manage media and our brand when the big companies like Google and YouTube have total control over what is displayed to the world. I have no idea how YouTube works, but I'm obviously not doing it right! lol

I think its all about the tags in the videos.. im not sure tho. I found this website out back in 2010 i believe . doing a google search "best modded controller" and i saw on a couple of forums they said viking n some other names. I checked them all out and opt for the macro because it has the best features. I dint know a macro controller existed.. and im sure most people don't either.. i knew about rapidfire controllers but that's it.
 

Wolfie

Member
This is the most all-inclusive post we've had. There's absolutely nothing here that we haven't heard before, but it is nice to have it all written down in one place. Your post looks exactly like our internal planning documents for "Project Valhalla" (the internal project name for the macro controller). We aren't on GUI v0.9.0.0 by random. We're at v0.9.0.0 because the project never become financially healthy enough to implement the remaining UI enhancements and other features and to take this software to v1.0.0. While the version number doesn't mean much to customers, it's an iconic reminder to myself that we never reached the full potential of this product.
Then my time was worth making the post then. You know what I see and I want. Whether you can realize it, that is beyond my ability to make happen. But knowing you want the same things makes me happy to know.


I know exactly what you mean by "Programmer Blinders" as it's happened to me plenty of time on projects. But that's not what is happening with the GUI. In our case, we actually have "budget blinders". In other words, we have no more budget for macro software improvements.
Yea, I have seen so many good ideas lie fallow due to lack of budget. The current world economy isn't a good one right now. God willing, that will change soon.


I had first written a long sob story about why we don't have budget for more software improvements, but I deleted that, and can instead sum up the whole situation like this: 95% of customers in this market are just looking for a hot paint job and blinking lights. The other 5% that are looking for functionality in their controllers, and those people are already Viking customers. Since we already destroy the competition in terms of functionality and features, the sad fact is that any further improvements to the macro software UI will not boost sales, nor increase our profits.

That is probably true. As I said in an early post, I am not your typical customer. I am happy to be in the 5%. And if that is all we get, so be it. But, you must continue to improve. Your competition will. And for what its worth, I am HAPPY you made the LEDs dimmer than the stock controller. I really was tempted several times to crack open the shell on my controllers and slap in a resistor in line with the LED ring on them. I like to play in darkened rooms and having bright LEDs lighting up in your face very annoying. All the entertainment equipment of mine now have little black electrical tape circles cut with a paper punch over the faddy blue LEDs and super bright red ones. I am the 5% who gives a **** how something works and less of a **** how "pretty" and battery sucking lit up it is.

I don't buy a game because of how pretty it is. I buy it because its fun to play. That is my thinking on buying a macro controller, I didn't buy it because you made it pretty, but because you made it do (mostly) what I wanted it to do. I chose all blue accents because I don't have any other controller thats blue and its easy to explain to the kids, "Don't touch the blue one". Simple as that. If all you offered was black with standard buttons, I would have still bought it.

I know. You have no idea how frustrating it is to try to manage media and our brand when the big companies like Google and YouTube have total control over what is displayed to the world. I have no idea how YouTube works, but I'm obviously not doing it right! lol

Rofl. Hire a 10 to 12yr old girl. She can explain exactly how youtube works :)

Trust me on this. I have 4 granddaughters ages 5 through 13 and they know far more about how to get your stuff seen on twitter, facebook and youtoube than I do. I hate the (anti)social sites to be honest. I think they are ruining a generation's ability to communicate verbally. I have seen my oldest GD's sentence structure change over the past couple years since she started with twitter and facebook. Her formerly wordy sentences have shortened to 3-5 words, just what would fit in 140 characters or in a text. And I don't like it. But I can't deny the ability of the sites to make or break a product or web site. If you are not actively (as in every day) pushing content out via a blog, twitter and facebook and at least weekly on youtube, you very quickly become an also-ran and drop off the radar.

For your product, a modded controller, that may not be a bad thing. I can see it keeping you out of sight of Microsoft. But you need to advertise. I found you quite by accident from a forum post that showed up on google. I knew some sort of macro controller had to exist, I just didn't know where to start so forums is where I began my search. After searching and a lot of reading about capability as well as user satisfaction, your products filtered to the top of the heap. I found several controllers that offered rapid fire and other stuff. But, frankly, that is not what I am interested in. I don't do FPS much. Not my bag. I was looking for pretty much what the macro controller does, allow full sequence recording and playback as well as editing/fabricating my own macros. The custom colors were just "gravy on the taters".
 

odingalt

Well-Known Member
Staff member
You are probably one of the few to notice the dimmer LED's. I can't remember why I did this but it was a conscious decision. I think I just liked the look of darker colors. And it seemed like maybe it would help lengthen battery life (although surely the wireless radio in the controller is what uses the most juice?)

We have a factory "button test code" that we load onto the controller. When a button is pressed, the LED's blink a certain number of times in a certain color. That code never dimmed the LED's (the dimming is software controlled). It's always a shock to the eyes when I slap in a fresh Alkaline battery back and power-on a controller with the LED's cranked to max brightness.

Well any way, I have a lot of ideas on how to improve on the macro controller if I ever have the chance to do it all over again. Which is exactly what I'm hoping will happen when the next generation of consoles is released! :)
 

Wolfie

Member
You are probably one of the few to notice the dimmer LED's. I can't remember why I did this but it was a conscious decision. I think I just liked the look of darker colors. And it seemed like maybe it would help lengthen battery life (although surely the wireless radio in the controller is what uses the most juice?)

I am glad you did. I am actually happy you made them dimmer.


Well any way, I have a lot of ideas on how to improve on the macro controller if I ever have the chance to do it all over again. Which is exactly what I'm hoping will happen when the next generation of consoles is released! :)

you will sir, you will. The new console will come. The controllers will be different. There is no way MS will have the same controllers. They want to sell new ones. They don't make money on the console, they make money on licensing things for it and selling accessories/games for it. Strike me dumbfounded if they allow it to use the current 360 controllers.
 
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